From: (JohnM) Sender: (Yaneer Bar-Yam) To: complex-science Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 01:32:40 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from smtp107.sbc.mail.re2.yahoo.com ([68.142.229.98] verified) by necsi.org (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.0.6) with SMTP id 22508527 for complex-science@necsi.org; Wed, 06 Aug 2008 11:16:45 -0400 Received: (qmail 75923 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2008 15:16:44 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=prodigy.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-ID:Reply-To:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=6mOxbirv8qFyS/JyHXXb2f6PeYW70NQ/T1uD4y44k5iAhHcOTa8viEk4DTePvfds67Vd/kAeaRREQoGuAsdQ42dCgYC2j7VdsfxUxmB2qWJ7Shrh1UlFuFeBHLXATpYIZwFyyXe4naqDnf3bVuMLqdgIDlClEtId6RDtNEUCtAE= ; Received: from unknown (HELO JohnCompaq) (jamikes@prodigy.net@12.75.197.18 with login) by smtp107.sbc.mail.re2.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Aug 2008 15:16:41 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: U3hGH80VM1mCoUtmJfttS0.IY8KZGBQNk0Cgl8MBpTiBHxsf1ZU2jAOmmxZRh2B3GvZ3XuVSRvVM_4MBxN9zg40MsqhJU9BaC.4mKqFnVZJW4KZmQRbjNudpF19t4CTLev7hus4Ip_U5hhjPqMGYW_oR X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Original-Message-ID: <000d01c8f7d7$6b18b5f0$12c54b0c@JohnCompaq> Reply-To: "JohnM" X-Original-To: References: Subject: Re: How to avoid mis-interpreting the second law of thermodynamics X-Original-Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 11:04:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0025_01C8F7B4.3A7CF1E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C8F7B4.3A7CF1E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is a fractional copy, please see my remark after the cut John M ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Sungchul Ji=20 To: complex-science@necsi.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 12:02 AM Subject: Re: How to avoid mis-interpreting the second law of = thermodynamics Thermodynamic systems divide into three classes, depending on whether = the system is exchanging energy and/or matter with its environment: Table 1. Three classes of thermodynamic systems _____________________________________________________________________ Thermodynamic Systems ______________________________________________________ Exchange Isolated Closed Open _____________________________________________________________________ Energy No Yes Yes - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Matter No No Yes - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Example Adiabatic Refrigerator Biosphere systems Thermometer Cells Universe* Heating pad Animals Engines - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Alternative Microcanonical Canonical Grand canonical names ensembles ensemble ensemble ______________________________________________________________________ *The Universe by definition doesn't even have any boundary and hence cannot exchange any matter or energy with it. It is important to note that many physicists and other scientists do = not differentiate between "closed" and "isolated" thermodynamic systems. = When they say "closed" system, they usually mean "isolated systems". Hope this table helps. Sung /discuss/discuss.html = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D JM: Isolated (closed?) is a figment, if it is indeed cut off, we do not = know about it at all. When we know about it, it has got to have = connections (we got) so we may miss 'the rest'.=20 (My mock-definition of the (then) isotherm and reversible classic = thermodynamics (Carnot - Clausius etc.) as a senior chemist-student: "it = is the system showing how things would proceed if they would not proceed = as they do proceed." We just don't know about the 'universe': we have a figment based on = many millennia of mis-observation and their mis-explanations as our = epistemy got gradually enriched.=20 Matter: going down the scale we find empty space and some 'effects' - = no matter in matter.=20 Energy? a good name, assigned what it 'does' and how to 'measure' it = (what?).=20 They may be "equivalent" figments of our conventional sciences.=20 Sorry for being facetious John M ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C8F7B4.3A7CF1E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is a fractional copy, please see my remark = after the=20 cut
John M
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Sungchul Ji
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, = 2008 12:02=20 AM
Subject: Re: How to avoid=20 mis-interpreting the second law of thermodynamics

Thermodynamic systems divide into three classes, depending on = whether=20 the
system is exchanging energy and/or matter with its=20 environment:

Table 1.  Three classes of thermodynamic=20 = systems
______________________________________________________________= _______

         &nbs= p;            = ;     =20 Thermodynamic=20 = Systems
          &n= bsp;   =20 = ______________________________________________________

Exchange&nb= sp;     =20 Isolated         =20 = Closed           &= nbsp;=20 = Open
_________________________________________________________________= ____

Energy        =20 = No            = ;   =20 = Yes           &nbs= p;   =20 Yes
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - = - -=20 -
Matter        =20 = No            = ;   =20 = No            = ;    =20 Yes
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - = - -=20 -
Example       =20 Adiabatic        =20 Refrigerator      =20 = Biosphere
          =        =20 systems       =20 Thermometer       =20 = Cells
          &nbs= p;   =20 Universe*         Heating=20 pad       =20 = Animals
          &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;    =20 Engines
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - = - - - -=20 -
Alternative    = Microcanonical    =20 Canonical          Grand=20 canonical
  =20 names         =20 ensembles        =20 ensemble          =20 = ensemble
_____________________________________________________________= _________
*The=20 Universe by definition doesn't even have any boundary and = hence
cannot=20 exchange any matter or energy with it.

It is important to note = that=20 many physicists and other scientists do not
differentiate between = "closed"=20 and "isolated" thermodynamic systems. When
they say "closed" = system, they=20 usually mean "isolated systems".

Hope this table=20 helps.

Sung

/discuss/discuss.html<= /DIV>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
JM:
Isolated (closed?) is a figment, if it is indeed cut off, we do = not know=20 about it at all. When we know about it, it has got to have connections = (we=20 got) so we may miss 'the rest'.
(My mock-definition of the (then) isotherm and reversible classic = thermodynamics (Carnot - Clausius etc.) as a senior chemist-student: = "it is=20 the system showing how things would proceed if they would not proceed = as they=20 do proceed."
We just don't know about the 'universe': we have a figment based = on many=20 millennia of mis-observation and their mis-explanations as our = epistemy got=20 gradually enriched.
 
Matter: going down the scale we find empty space and some = 'effects' - no=20 matter in matter.
Energy? a good name, assigned what it 'does' and how to = 'measure' it=20 (what?).
They may be "equivalent"<G> figments of our conventional = sciences.=20
 
Sorry for being facetious
 
John M
 
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