Mailing List complex-science@necsi.org Message #9660

From: <complex-science@necsi.org> (JohnM)
Sender: <y3list1@necsi.org> (Yaneer Bar-Yam)
Subject: Re: How to avoid mis-interpreting the second law of thermodynamics
Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 23:27:43 -0400
To: complex-science
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Thanasis,
reasonable questions you ask yourself. Too much to plan for somebody who has 'smarter' ways to think. The old and conventional science topics are giving way to the newer thinking - mostly in total interconnectedness and activity unceasing for continual change(s) in the totality.
I stopped with thermodynamics (Cl = Classic or Clausius) when I realized that it is a 'model' for isotherm reversible (so unnatural) imaginary systems. Then came Prigogine with his irreversible dissipative (out from the system) ways - omitting the effects that COME IN from outside the system and make similar (different) changes to what dissipated.
Isolated system? only in our dreams. If a system IS indeed isolated, we don't know about it: no info can get in/out - or it is 'not so much' isolated. System? hard to differentiate from organization, a 'cut' of interrelated elements in some topic or function (ideation?). Since it is 'defined' to certain parts and characteristics, I call it a 'model'. If it is unlimited: it can not be identified in/from the totality with our today's mental capability.
The 'laws' are observations of the 'usual' within a limited model of our observation. Take a wider domain and 'laws' (and statistics and probabilities) will change. It is all within the figment our conventional science identifies as the "physical world" upon millennialong primitive observations and their millennialong (ever changing) explanatory attempts mostly based of the changing math over those millennia as well. Needless to mention the 'developing' yet still primitive instrumentation limited to the actual cognitive inventory we absorbed in the epistemic enrichment.
 
Have a good day
 
John M
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: How to avoid mis-interpreting the second law of thermodynamics

Do not know, first have to name what an isolated system is, then what a system is, then define enthropy, then see the math used to produce the laws, then see what these math have to do with my result and what they express , check also Prigogine's formulations and to what they are refering to , and then insert the data to biology. The Clausius formulations where a lot way back and spoke of different things? have to check this also the way it altered? in todays formulas...
Anyway thanks for the hints.
 
Thanasis
2008/7/10 <complex-science@necsi.org>:
Thanks,

Sung

> Very clear!
> Best wishes,
>
>
> Loet
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: complex-science@necsi.org [mailto:complex-science@necsi.org]
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 5:47 AM
>> To: complex-science@necsi.org
>> Subject: How to avoid mis-interpreting the second law of
>> thermodynamics
>>
>> The most general way to express the second law of thermodynamics is in
>> terms of the following formalism introduced by Prigogine
>> (1917-2003) in
>> 1967 [1]:
>>
>>       dS = d_eS + d_iS           . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>> . . . . . . (1)
>>
>> where dS is the overall entropy change experienced by the system under
>> consideration, d_eS (i.e., "d subscript e S")is the entropy exchanged
>> between the system and its environment, and d_iS is the
>> entropy change due
>> to irreversible processes occurring within the system such as
>> diffusion
>> and chemical reactions.
>>
>> Using Eq. (1), we can express the second law as follows [1]:
>>
>>   "Whenever irreversible processes occur within a system,
>> d_iS > 0." . . (2)
>>
>> Statement (2), when applied to isolated and non-isolated
>> (which includes
>> both closed and open) systems, leads to the following corollaries:
>>
>>   "The entropy of isolated systems increases with time."   .
>> . . . . . . (3)
>>
>>   "The entropy of non-isolated system can increase,
>>   decrease or remain constant with time."             . . . .
>> .. . . . . (4)
>>
>> Statement (3) was first articulated by Rudolf Clausius
>> (1822-1888) around
>> 1867 [1] and is the familiar form in which the second law is usually
>> presented in text books, and Statement (4), alhtough obvious from the
>> non-equilibrium thermodyanics point of view and most relevant
>> to biology,
>> is unfortunately less well-known among biologists.
>>
>> For convenience, these statements of the second law are
>> re-iterated in a
>> tabular form in Table 1, where the third column represents
>> Statement (2),
>> the second row and the last column represents Statement (3),
>> and the third
>> row and the last column represents Statement (4).
>>
>>
>>    Table 1.  Different meanings of the second law depending
>> on whether the
>> thermodynamic system under consideration is isolated or non-isolated.
>> ____________________________________________________________________
>>
>>    System           d_eS              d_iS           dS
>> ____________________________________________________________________
>>
>>    Isolated         0                  > 0           > 0
>> ____________________________________________________________________
>>
>>    Non-isolated
>>    (i.e, closed     >, < or = 0        > 0           >, < or = 0
>>    or open)
>> ____________________________________________________________________
>>
>>
>> One common error found in biological literature seems to arise from
>> conflating d_iS and dS, leading to the erroneous conclusion that the
>> entropy of the system under consideration increases with time
>> regardless
>> of whether or not the system is isolated. The consequence of this
>> seemingly minor error in reasoning can be serious and far-reaching in
>> biological discourses.
>>
>> With all the best.
>>
>> Sung
>>
>> ___________________________________________
>> Sungchul Ji, Ph.D.
>> Department of Pharmacology and Toxicology
>> Rutgers Unviersity
>> Piscataway, N.J. 08855
>>
>>
>>
>> Reference:
>> [1] Kondepudi, D. and Prigogine, I. (1998). Modern
>> Thermodynamics: From
>> Heat Engines to Dissipative Structures. John Wiley & Sons,
>> Chichester.
>> P. 88.
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> For information about this discussion group visit
>> http://necsi.org/discuss/discuss.html
>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> For information about this discussion group visit
> http://necsi.org/discuss/discuss.html
>


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