From: (Thanasis Argiriou) Sender: (Yaneer Bar-Yam) To: complex-science Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 00:02:06 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com ([209.85.200.174] verified) by necsi.org (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.0.6) with ESMTP id 22249428 for complex-science@necsi.org; Fri, 18 Jul 2008 06:52:48 -0400 Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 25so176442wfc.14 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 2008 03:52:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=g4lDak2y6BEoQyi94PW0JX6AYZ23WlThpPeXKks9Yaw=; b=s8yq8Ca7boDX2jnSyTBr8ogJipNfo3z6cwcPhzSwqxs2hp/czyxlUDF47vAFgEbxBd Px25k2X8UX7oDE27+PAOPbv2pSlwbUb0B6/kGG577hu6J1HGNupcA/q8YbzeWU8oSEAG 2VuxPzfPgengcTyBiKt0U47jq4P6F2mvzxtO4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references; b=D5LLbhJubaJt/JdXMr5bcGqQ3aTG8t6GkFIE2y2bPCu1SvRRxhLoafPFj4crgIXBQJ o8FzemyqKX/4Vw/1oSvs5JkSBVNUDSr2rTImzf/dBzv81CWZMD6oJKDVfeIDwoef2Cw3 gBviz9oabHpB5TW2DhBDWhNZ1/6t/KlvprPi4= Received: by 10.142.109.16 with SMTP id h16mr1051655wfc.190.1216378360820; Fri, 18 Jul 2008 03:52:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.242.15 with HTTP; Fri, 18 Jul 2008 03:52:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-Message-ID: <79285ab50807180352q5b00f540qfdf2e81b47f3eeb0@mail.gmail.com> X-Original-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:52:40 +0300 X-Original-To: complex-science@necsi.org Subject: Re: Dual mechanisms of correlations--sychronic and diachronic In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_40779_28078962.1216378360794" References: ------=_Part_40779_28078962.1216378360794 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi Sung, Guess you forgot one thing consciousness, all this could be approached in a much more varied but difficult way, which would take much more time and intuition to approach. The categories used I do not find appropriate, not much coherence to my mind but maybe there is and I do not see it. The end wholistic biology and reductionist biology? still simple categories, universal principles ? the meanings behind that? Something on my mind this day, that Einstein gave us a paradox, time-space unification, provided us the paradox that we could see the past looking at the stars. So the paradox is I of the now see the past so the past coexists with the now. But I can not influence it? or can I ? Discussed that with a friend of mine and he convinced me of the opposite, also a physicist, but now I hold my opinion in my mind. Respectfully, Thanasis 2008/7/17 : > It seems that "interactions" and "correlations" are two of the most widely > used terms in all intellectual discourses, ranging from physics, to > chemistry, to biology, to computer science, to mathematics, and beyond. I > have reasons to believe that "correlations" is more general than and > subsumes "interactions". It is clear that correlations can be quantitated > using the Shannon's entropy formula. > > The purpose of this post is twofold -- i) define two kinds of > correlations, and ii) apply the result to support the conclusion that the > two fundamental questions in biology, i.e., "What is life?" and "What is a > gene?", are entangled in the sense that one question cannot be answered > without taking into account the other, or that answering one automatically > answers the other. > > Linguists divide their field into two branches depending on the > methodologies employed -- i) the synchronic approach analyzing language > uses going on here and now, and ii) the diachronic approach focusing on > the historical development of languages. > > Likewise, we may divide "correlations" into two classes -- > > i) synchronic correlations between two or more objects resulting from > their physical interactions through space with speeds less than c, the > speed of light, and > > ii) diachronic correlations between two or more objects resulting from > their being derived from a common precursor state/object and thus > appearing to interact instantly or with speeds faster than c. These two > mechanisms of correlations are compared in Table 1. > > > Table 1. A comparison between synchronic and diachronic correlations. > __________________________________________________________________________ > > Correlations > ________________________________________________________ > > Synchronic Diachronic > __________________________________________________________________________ > > 1. Correlations Space Time > in > > 2. Speed Less than c Faster than c > (i.e., instantaneous) > > > 3. Alternative "Physical interactions" "Entanglement" (?) > names "Horizontal correlations" "Vertical correlations" > "Relativistic "Non-relativistic > interactions" interactions" > > 4. Examples All interactions in "Spooky action at a distance" > physics and chemistry All evolved systems > including organisms > > 5. Scientific Physics Evolutionary biology > disciplines Chemistry Cosmology > Reductionistic Holistic > (molecular) biology (cell) biology > Synchronic linguistics Diachronic linguistics > Computer science > Applied mathematics Pure mathematics (?) > __________________________________________________________________________ > > The essential point of Table 1 is the logical assertion that correlations > can be dichotomized based on the dichotomy of space and time. > > As examples of the dicharonic correlations, I cited the controversial > topics of Einstein's "spooky action at a distance" or "entanglement", but > I am not a theoretical physicist so I do not know if this inclusion will > survive the test of a more rigorous mathematical-physics analysis. However > I will assume that the identification of "diachronic correlations" with > "entanglement" is reasonable for the purpose of this post. > > I was motivated to formulate the dual mechanisms of correlations proposed > in Table 1 by my intuition this morning that the two questions, "What is > life? and "What is a gene", may be entangled in the sense that one cannot > be answered without taking into account the other, or that answering one > automatically constrains the answer to the other in such a way as to make > both answers together obey a common set of universal principles. This, of > course, is reminiscent of the "spooky action at a distance" or > entanglement in quantum physics. > > If the above conjecture is valid, several useful conclusions may be drawn > on the basis of it: > > i) Biology divides into two branches -- reductionistic biology (RB) > embodying physicochemical interactions in space whose speed is > constrained by c, and holistic biology (HB) embodying correlations in > the time dimension which can appear as spatial > correlations/interactions at a transluminal speed. > > ii) HB cannot be reduced to RB, nor vice versa, just as a vertical axis > cannot be reduced to a horizontal axis and vice versa in the > 2-dimensional Euclidean space. > > iii) There exists a universal set of principles that constraints the > correlations between HB and RB. One possible member of the postulated > universal set of principles may be the information-energy complementarity > (see Complementarism in my home page, under Publications). WE may > summarize these ideas schematically as follows: > > > Universal Principles > (e.g., the principle of information-energy complementarity) > > ^ > ^ ^ > ^ ^ > ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ > Reductionistic Holistic > Biology Biology > > Figure 1. Reductionistic biology and holistic biology as the > complementary manifestations of a set of universal principles. > > If Figure 1 is valid, it may enable us to infer that synchronic and > diachronic correlations are the complementary aspects/manifestations of > universal principles, just as waves and particles are the complementary > aspects of quantum objects. > > > With all the best. > > Sung > > _________________________________________ > Sungchul Ji, Ph.D. > Department of Pharmacology and Toxicology > Rutgers University > Piscataway, N.J. 08855 > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > For information about this discussion group visit > http://necsi.org/discuss/discuss.html > ------=_Part_40779_28078962.1216378360794 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
Hi Sung,
 
Guess you forgot one thing consciousness, all this could be approached in a much more varied but difficult way, which would take much more time and intuition to approach.
The categories used I do not find appropriate, not much coherence to my mind but maybe there is and I do not see it.
 
The end wholistic biology and reductionist biology? still simple categories, universal principles ? the meanings behind that?
 
Something on my mind this day, that Einstein gave us a paradox, time-space unification, provided us the paradox that we could see the past looking at the stars. So the paradox is I of the now see the past so the past coexists with the now. But I can not influence it? or can I ?
Discussed that with a friend of mine and he convinced me of the opposite, also a physicist, but now I hold my opinion in my mind.
Respectfully,
Thanasis
2008/7/17 <complex-science@necsi.org>:
It seems that "interactions" and "correlations" are two of the most widely
used terms in all intellectual discourses, ranging from physics, to
chemistry, to biology, to computer science, to mathematics, and beyond. I
have reasons to believe that "correlations" is more general than and
subsumes "interactions".  It is clear that correlations can be quantitated
using the Shannon's entropy formula.

The purpose of this post is twofold -- i) define two kinds of
correlations, and ii) apply the result to support the conclusion that the
two fundamental questions in biology, i.e., "What is life?" and "What is a
gene?", are entangled in the sense that one question cannot be answered
without taking into account the other, or that answering one automatically
answers the other.

Linguists divide their field into two branches depending on the
methodologies employed -- i) the synchronic approach analyzing language
uses going on here and now, and ii) the diachronic approach focusing on
the historical development of languages.

Likewise, we may divide "correlations" into two classes --

  i) synchronic correlations between two or more objects resulting from
their physical interactions through space with speeds less than c, the
speed of light, and

 ii) diachronic correlations between two or more objects resulting from
their being derived from a common precursor state/object and thus
appearing to interact instantly or with speeds faster than c. These two
mechanisms of correlations are compared in Table 1.


Table 1.  A comparison between synchronic and diachronic correlations.
__________________________________________________________________________

                             Correlations
                 ________________________________________________________

                 Synchronic                 Diachronic
__________________________________________________________________________

1. Correlations   Space                      Time
  in

2. Speed          Less than c                Faster than c
                                               (i.e., instantaneous)


3. Alternative   "Physical interactions"     "Entanglement" (?)
  names         "Horizontal correlations"   "Vertical correlations"
                "Relativistic               "Non-relativistic
                    interactions"             interactions"

4. Examples      All interactions in         "Spooky action at a distance"
                   physics and chemistry    All evolved systems
                                               including organisms

5. Scientific    Physics                     Evolutionary biology
  disciplines   Chemistry                   Cosmology
                Reductionistic              Holistic
                   (molecular) biology         (cell) biology
                Synchronic linguistics      Diachronic linguistics
                Computer science
                Applied mathematics         Pure mathematics (?)
__________________________________________________________________________

The essential point of Table 1 is the logical assertion that correlations
can be dichotomized based on the dichotomy of space and time.

As examples of the dicharonic correlations, I cited the controversial
topics of Einstein's "spooky action at a distance" or "entanglement", but
I am not a theoretical physicist so I do not know if this inclusion will
survive the test of a more rigorous mathematical-physics analysis. However
I will assume that the identification of "diachronic correlations" with
"entanglement" is reasonable for the purpose of this post.

I was motivated to formulate the dual mechanisms of correlations proposed
in Table 1 by my intuition this morning that the two questions, "What is
life? and "What is a gene", may be entangled in the sense that one cannot
be answered without taking into account the other, or that answering one
automatically constrains the answer to the other in such a way as to make
both answers together obey a common set of universal principles. This, of
course, is reminiscent of the "spooky action at a distance" or
entanglement in quantum physics.

If the above conjecture is valid, several useful conclusions may be drawn
on the basis of it:

  i)  Biology divides into two branches -- reductionistic biology (RB)
embodying physicochemical interactions in space whose speed is
constrained by c, and holistic biology (HB) embodying correlations in
the time dimension which can appear as spatial
correlations/interactions at a transluminal speed.

 ii) HB cannot be reduced to RB, nor vice versa, just as a vertical axis
cannot be reduced to a horizontal axis and vice versa in the
2-dimensional Euclidean space.

 iii) There exists a universal set of principles that constraints the
correlations between HB and RB.  One possible member of the postulated
universal set of principles may be the information-energy complementarity
(see Complementarism in my home page, under Publications).  WE may
summarize these ideas schematically as follows:


                      Universal Principles
 (e.g., the principle of information-energy complementarity)

                               ^
                             ^   ^
                           ^       ^
                         ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
          Reductionistic               Holistic
                 Biology               Biology

Figure 1. Reductionistic biology and holistic biology as the
         complementary manifestations of a set of universal principles.

If Figure 1 is valid, it may enable us to infer that synchronic and
diachronic correlations are the complementary aspects/manifestations of
universal principles, just as waves and particles are the complementary
aspects of quantum objects.


With all the best.

Sung

_________________________________________
Sungchul Ji, Ph.D.
Department of Pharmacology and Toxicology
Rutgers University
Piscataway, N.J. 08855







--------------------------------------------------
For information about this discussion group visit
http://necsi.org/discuss/discuss.html

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