From: (Thanasis Argiriou) Sender: (Yaneer Bar-Yam) To: complex-science Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 11:28:55 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from an-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.132.245] verified) by necsi.org (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.0.6) with ESMTP id 22128771 for complex-science@necsi.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 02:19:24 -0400 Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id d31so611642and.92 for ; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 23:19:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=er2ZDg2hk4CK99cJ+WE877FPZnHg0Sd3g3V1Aw7Isak=; b=OU1wCEoqpasMWtnymiwEHoO9ib8xnS5k+TBaT69xkhk7wlWJbfezeRqNC5X8TmTwGA kt+TPvWqxn2yfkh+K9XYN+qsalxjs1pXuhdN0ktgzU7WgfVHLAAMPMVHOdpgrdcBK1JY Xq1V3OaO6lHDAhDAdaT3o1twU7wXZh7qaTgtM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references; b=FS8rX1juCJRrjpw1pEcwDOQnKx5rjS1T94GBCoh9I6cPUvMdmpus485ZBCiaFtCcG+ FYn1H5cxKZZhfmxgsygWrPJ9bta/WiPiFDWUmDCL91ry72+RT5ZqPHqY/PoqX1xTLCXo B/k55uHG516zRvo9GLymmmXwi9iEmNZtozJBM= Received: by 10.100.137.11 with SMTP id k11mr7263077and.25.1215670759250; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 23:19:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.33.2 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 23:19:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-Message-ID: <79285ab50807092319p69b4c406p622694f648226cb4@mail.gmail.com> X-Original-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:19:19 +0300 X-Original-To: complex-science@necsi.org Subject: Re: How to avoid mis-interpreting the second law of thermodynamics In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_20225_12660872.1215670759182" References: ------=_Part_20225_12660872.1215670759182 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Do not know, first have to name what an isolated system is, then what a system is, then define enthropy, then see the math used to produce the laws, then see what these math have to do with my result and what they express , check also Prigogine's formulations and to what they are refering to , and then insert the data to biology. The Clausius formulations where a lot way back and spoke of different things? have to check this also the way it altered? in todays formulas... Anyway thanks for the hints. Thanasis 2008/7/10 : > Thanks, > > Sung > > > Very clear! > > Best wishes, > > > > > > Loet > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: complex-science@necsi.org [mailto:complex-science@necsi.org] > >> Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 5:47 AM > >> To: complex-science@necsi.org > >> Subject: How to avoid mis-interpreting the second law of > >> thermodynamics > >> > >> The most general way to express the second law of thermodynamics is in > >> terms of the following formalism introduced by Prigogine > >> (1917-2003) in > >> 1967 [1]: > >> > >> dS = d_eS + d_iS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > >> . . . . . . (1) > >> > >> where dS is the overall entropy change experienced by the system under > >> consideration, d_eS (i.e., "d subscript e S")is the entropy exchanged > >> between the system and its environment, and d_iS is the > >> entropy change due > >> to irreversible processes occurring within the system such as > >> diffusion > >> and chemical reactions. > >> > >> Using Eq. (1), we can express the second law as follows [1]: > >> > >> "Whenever irreversible processes occur within a system, > >> d_iS > 0." . . (2) > >> > >> Statement (2), when applied to isolated and non-isolated > >> (which includes > >> both closed and open) systems, leads to the following corollaries: > >> > >> "The entropy of isolated systems increases with time." . > >> . . . . . . (3) > >> > >> "The entropy of non-isolated system can increase, > >> decrease or remain constant with time." . . . . > >> .. . . . . (4) > >> > >> Statement (3) was first articulated by Rudolf Clausius > >> (1822-1888) around > >> 1867 [1] and is the familiar form in which the second law is usually > >> presented in text books, and Statement (4), alhtough obvious from the > >> non-equilibrium thermodyanics point of view and most relevant > >> to biology, > >> is unfortunately less well-known among biologists. > >> > >> For convenience, these statements of the second law are > >> re-iterated in a > >> tabular form in Table 1, where the third column represents > >> Statement (2), > >> the second row and the last column represents Statement (3), > >> and the third > >> row and the last column represents Statement (4). > >> > >> > >> Table 1. Different meanings of the second law depending > >> on whether the > >> thermodynamic system under consideration is isolated or non-isolated. > >> ____________________________________________________________________ > >> > >> System d_eS d_iS dS > >> ____________________________________________________________________ > >> > >> Isolated 0 > 0 > 0 > >> ____________________________________________________________________ > >> > >> Non-isolated > >> (i.e, closed >, < or = 0 > 0 >, < or = 0 > >> or open) > >> ____________________________________________________________________ > >> > >> > >> One common error found in biological literature seems to arise from > >> conflating d_iS and dS, leading to the erroneous conclusion that the > >> entropy of the system under consideration increases with time > >> regardless > >> of whether or not the system is isolated. The consequence of this > >> seemingly minor error in reasoning can be serious and far-reaching in > >> biological discourses. > >> > >> With all the best. > >> > >> Sung > >> > >> ___________________________________________ > >> Sungchul Ji, Ph.D. > >> Department of Pharmacology and Toxicology > >> Rutgers Unviersity > >> Piscataway, N.J. 08855 > >> > >> > >> > >> Reference: > >> [1] Kondepudi, D. and Prigogine, I. (1998). Modern > >> Thermodynamics: From > >> Heat Engines to Dissipative Structures. John Wiley & Sons, > >> Chichester. > >> P. 88. > >> > >> > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------- > >> For information about this discussion group visit > >> http://necsi.org/discuss/discuss.html > >> > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > For information about this discussion group visit > > http://necsi.org/discuss/discuss.html > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > For information about this discussion group visit > http://necsi.org/discuss/discuss.html > ------=_Part_20225_12660872.1215670759182 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
Do not know, first have to name what an isolated system is, then what a system is, then define enthropy, then see the math used to produce the laws, then see what these math have to do with my result and what they express , check also Prigogine's formulations and to what they are refering to , and then insert the data to biology. The Clausius formulations where a lot way back and spoke of different things? have to check this also the way it altered? in todays formulas...
Anyway thanks for the hints.
 
Thanasis
2008/7/10 <complex-science@necsi.org>:
Thanks,

Sung

> Very clear!
> Best wishes,
>
>
> Loet
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: complex-science@necsi.org [mailto:complex-science@necsi.org]
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 5:47 AM
>> To: complex-science@necsi.org
>> Subject: How to avoid mis-interpreting the second law of
>> thermodynamics
>>
>> The most general way to express the second law of thermodynamics is in
>> terms of the following formalism introduced by Prigogine
>> (1917-2003) in
>> 1967 [1]:
>>
>>       dS = d_eS + d_iS           . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>> . . . . . . (1)
>>
>> where dS is the overall entropy change experienced by the system under
>> consideration, d_eS (i.e., "d subscript e S")is the entropy exchanged
>> between the system and its environment, and d_iS is the
>> entropy change due
>> to irreversible processes occurring within the system such as
>> diffusion
>> and chemical reactions.
>>
>> Using Eq. (1), we can express the second law as follows [1]:
>>
>>   "Whenever irreversible processes occur within a system,
>> d_iS > 0." . . (2)
>>
>> Statement (2), when applied to isolated and non-isolated
>> (which includes
>> both closed and open) systems, leads to the following corollaries:
>>
>>   "The entropy of isolated systems increases with time."   .
>> . . . . . . (3)
>>
>>   "The entropy of non-isolated system can increase,
>>   decrease or remain constant with time."             . . . .
>> .. . . . . (4)
>>
>> Statement (3) was first articulated by Rudolf Clausius
>> (1822-1888) around
>> 1867 [1] and is the familiar form in which the second law is usually
>> presented in text books, and Statement (4), alhtough obvious from the
>> non-equilibrium thermodyanics point of view and most relevant
>> to biology,
>> is unfortunately less well-known among biologists.
>>
>> For convenience, these statements of the second law are
>> re-iterated in a
>> tabular form in Table 1, where the third column represents
>> Statement (2),
>> the second row and the last column represents Statement (3),
>> and the third
>> row and the last column represents Statement (4).
>>
>>
>>    Table 1.  Different meanings of the second law depending
>> on whether the
>> thermodynamic system under consideration is isolated or non-isolated.
>> ____________________________________________________________________
>>
>>    System           d_eS              d_iS           dS
>> ____________________________________________________________________
>>
>>    Isolated         0                  > 0           > 0
>> ____________________________________________________________________
>>
>>    Non-isolated
>>    (i.e, closed     >, < or = 0        > 0           >, < or = 0
>>    or open)
>> ____________________________________________________________________
>>
>>
>> One common error found in biological literature seems to arise from
>> conflating d_iS and dS, leading to the erroneous conclusion that the
>> entropy of the system under consideration increases with time
>> regardless
>> of whether or not the system is isolated. The consequence of this
>> seemingly minor error in reasoning can be serious and far-reaching in
>> biological discourses.
>>
>> With all the best.
>>
>> Sung
>>
>> ___________________________________________
>> Sungchul Ji, Ph.D.
>> Department of Pharmacology and Toxicology
>> Rutgers Unviersity
>> Piscataway, N.J. 08855
>>
>>
>>
>> Reference:
>> [1] Kondepudi, D. and Prigogine, I. (1998). Modern
>> Thermodynamics: From
>> Heat Engines to Dissipative Structures. John Wiley & Sons,
>> Chichester.
>> P. 88.
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> For information about this discussion group visit
>> http://necsi.org/discuss/discuss.html
>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> For information about this discussion group visit
> http://necsi.org/discuss/discuss.html
>


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