From: (JohnM) Sender: (Yaneer Bar-Yam) To: complex-science Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 14:58:19 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from smtp114.sbc.mail.re2.yahoo.com ([68.142.229.91] verified) by necsi.org (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.0.6) with SMTP id 22030160 for complex-science@necsi.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 16:46:16 -0400 Received: (qmail 98055 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2008 20:46:16 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=prodigy.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-ID:Reply-To:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=nGMOB2wpsqQMMTXfy5YaHNHYUtmYwVUx4t3C1i7qQ46uZIaQfaCanNBhv9LvXTUA4bZyErNr+40+yFLS6GqeHj+uy3oX5uoaD4+UDf9+UDdnLX/3bNRQtMDs2kB/N4mq7y8cMEdyKixFTySoBq0oizp7RcEiGGjdHRLiLjglpwI= ; Received: from unknown (HELO JohnCompaq) (jamikes@prodigy.net@12.75.196.143 with login) by smtp114.sbc.mail.re2.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2008 20:45:56 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: 3UkRE1IVM1keXzDjouzRHq4e6sqgV_C6P.A0GJrMDx2u2GL13H2ySL4tc4pcZTGgNZjRGkIRwVqFt7WY66ucHG2f.MhKjDeBVYRA9rsujvYEGhTR.VNpBE3le.3k._PdDnhuIuJblW1M8YdlKrIRe3Zq X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Original-Message-ID: <007201c8dd4d$c5fbe860$8fc44b0c@JohnCompaq> Reply-To: "JohnM" X-Original-To: References: Subject: Re: non-natural philosophy X-Original-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:37:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0036_01C8DD2B.1C01EE80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C8DD2B.1C01EE80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: non-natural philosophyTh and Stan: "axiomatic thesis"? I have a = terrible definition: we call axioms those figments that are necessary to = keep our theories workable. (Forget about 1 + 1 =3D 2 and the entire = math is lost. That does not mean that the world is lost, just our = 'perceived reality' has to be changed). Maybe to a better one? Let's try = it? * Another is 'bifurcation', the stingy scientist who restricts nature's = capability to select between ways into those TWO alternates what WE, = humans are capable of recognising. Nature may have more (as: = tetrafurcation, gigafurcation?) Just keep away from the 'infinite'. * Math is human invention upon having invented quantities (D.Bohm). It started with smaller, larger, then '2' (hands etc.) and half of that. = My (non IndoEuropean) mother tongue calls a one-legged person a = "half-legged one, a lost eye makes a 'half-eyer'. Different logic.=20 * Greek is a 'language' developed under living circumstances within a = territory and its inhabitants. - OR?? - Since I like the idea that the = Aegeian archipelago is the remnant of a tsunami that destroyed - = 'Atlantis' (in THIS area, not in the Atlantic Ocean) Greek may have much = older roots than what the present history is accounting for. The = survivors on the mountaintops...they think, can 'talk' but lost all = technical facilities. (Crete may have saved some mental heritage).=20 Maybe even the language underwent so huge changes that it did adjust to = the later formulated communicational patterns from other areas. So may = be the lesser developed cultural languages that lack of a firm = origination (Dravidians, Basques, Albanians to name some).=20 =20 Happy 4th of July John M ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Stanley Salthe=20 To: complex-science@necsi.org=20 Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 11:47 PM Subject: Re: non-natural philosophy Thanasis -- There is a description that consciousness is at rare events = consistent and axiomatic in its behavior and when it moves towards = axiomatic thesis of consistency it has terrible time doing it, (might it = also collapse?). So in that scale one might ask why. Why it remains = vague. The difficulty of memorization could? be an example- proof of = this.=20 A thing that changes continuously in a pattern has difficulty in = changing its pattern but the fact is why? why do we have such trouble = changing ourselves, which axiom is the axiom when axioms constantly = change? I am looking for its characteristics in order to define her. = (Characteristics I call a description beyond borders, of its phenotype, = without correlations.) Can I ever express what I want to like the first time-unless I = memorize it, or it comes out of memory? If my ruminations are free every = description will be different and at rare times would they be of the = depth I desire in order thought is identical to expression, as to give = me a sense of fulfillment. And the question is why the different = ruminations, what this means for consciousness lying in certain margins = of meanings. =20 The consistency could lie in places where the theory of the noose = takes place, the base that negates itself, as is Godel theorem, which = disproves itself. =20 Now to dynamics themselves, I wonder what bifurcation is indeed. You = see now in my world there exist a variety of phenomena and events which = are expressed in a multi faceted way. There is a hypothesis I have not checked yet, and do not know if I = will, that the Greek language and therefore mostly the ancient Greek = where it derives from, is an axiomatic language, and has a similarity to = logical structuring or is of stricly logical structuring?. Which means what in the multi faceted world were everything is = connected? =20 Math and Greek are of similar origin? of ancient greek origin? And = if it is ? so? What do math really create with their sympolism? Possible answers?=20 S: Certainty. Not possible in the World, but possible in math = and logic (if you keep it simple!). So does have to do with Godel, dynamics with Godel? math of Godel to math to dynamics to language to Godel We forgot something Greece. We add that up. Greece to ancient And this is dynamics? =20 "The pendulum of the mind oscillates between sense and nonsense, not = between right and wrong" =20 Jung =20 math of Godel to math to dynamics to language to Godel to Jung to = math to dynamics =20 Sense to math? math to sense? =20 we go again =20 math of Godel to math to dynamics to language to Godel to Jung to = math to dynamics sense to math to Greece to ancient to math to sense to Godel to = Jung? =20 ancient goes to? yes history history to ancient to math to history to ancient =20 math of Godel to math to dynamics to language to Godel to Jung to = math to dynamics sense to math to Greece to ancient to math to sense to Godel to Jung = to history to ancient to math to history to ancient to Godel to dynamics = to history to dynamics to ancient .... =20 Tired. =20 Does anyone want to continue with other interractions, what is the = number called ? infinite, and it comes from? =20 God it sounds all Greek to me?.=20 S: Have another hit. STAN =20 =20 =20 If one does not understand a person, one tends to regard him as a = fool as one said long ago. But who cares about Jung, Jung thoughts were nonsense he says that = the greatest and most important problems of life are all fundamentally = insoluble. They can never be solved but only outgrown.=20 ? =20 Wonder what growth could be... Should I add a sense to growth to the calculation and calculation to = Godel to fundamentally insoluble?.=20 =20 =20 Best, Thanasis, unemployed physicist, guess some kind of a fool, whatever = a fool is,( guess my Greek is better than my English) =20 Ps:Should I add that up to the list? and that is which list? and the purpose of the list to the ones subscribing to dynamics to = me to the ones who created it to me to language to purpose to sense to = Godel to logic to madness to sense to language?=20 Sense is being... wonder who said that? what sense and what being? =20 =20 =20 Welcome to Gestalt ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C8DD2B.1C01EE80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: non-natural philosophy
Th and Stan: "axiomatic thesis"? I have a terrible = definition:=20 we call axioms those figments that are necessary to keep our theories = workable.=20 (Forget about 1 + 1 =3D 2 and the entire math is lost. That does = not mean=20 that the world is lost, just our 'perceived reality' has to be changed). = Maybe=20 to a better one? Let's try it?<GG>
*
Another is 'bifurcation', the stingy scientist who restricts = nature's=20 capability to select between ways into those TWO alternates what WE, = humans are=20 capable of recognising. Nature may have more (as: tetrafurcation,=20 gigafurcation?) Just keep away from the 'infinite'.
*
Math is human invention upon having invented quantities = (D.Bohm).
It started with smaller, larger, then '2' (hands etc.) and half of = that.=20
My (non IndoEuropean) mother tongue calls a one-legged person a=20 "half-legged one, a lost eye makes a 'half-eyer'. Different logic. =
*
Greek is a 'language' developed under living circumstances within a = territory and its inhabitants. - OR?? -  Since I like the idea that = the=20 Aegeian archipelago is the remnant of a tsunami that destroyed  = - =20 'Atlantis' (in THIS area, not in the Atlantic Ocean) Greek may have much = older=20 roots than what the present history is accounting for. The survivors on = the=20 mountaintops...they think, can 'talk' but lost all technical facilities. = (Crete may have saved some mental heritage).
Maybe even the language underwent so huge changes that it did = adjust to the=20 later formulated communicational patterns from other areas. So = may be=20 the lesser developed cultural languages that lack of a firm origination=20 (Dravidians, Basques, Albanians to name some).
 
Happy 4th of July
John M
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Stanley Salthe
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 = 11:47=20 PM
Subject: Re: non-natural = philosophy

Thanasis --


 There is a description = that=20 consciousness is at rare events consistent and axiomatic in its = behavior and=20 when it moves towards axiomatic thesis of consistency it has = terrible time=20 doing it, (might it also collapse?). So in that scale one = might ask=20 why. Why it remains vague. The difficulty of memorization could? be = an=20 example- proof of this. 
A thing that changes continuously = in a=20 pattern has difficulty in changing its pattern but the fact is why? = why do=20 we have such trouble changing ourselves, which axiom is the axiom = when=20 axioms constantly change?
 I am looking for its = characteristics=20 in order to define her. (Characteristics I call a description beyond = borders, of its phenotype, without correlations.)
Can I ever = express what=20 I want to like the first time-unless I memorize it, or it comes out = of=20 memory? If my ruminations are free every description will be = different and=20 at rare times would they be of the depth I desire in order thought = is=20 identical to expression, as to give me a sense of fulfillment. And = the=20 question is why the different ruminations, what this means for = consciousness=20 lying in certain margins of meanings.
 
The consistency = could lie=20 in places where the theory of the noose takes place, the base that = negates=20 itself, as is Godel theorem, which disproves=20 itself.
 
Now to dynamics themselves, I = wonder what=20 bifurcation is indeed. You see now in my world there exist a variety = of=20 phenomena and events which are expressed in a multi faceted = way.
There is=20 a hypothesis I have not checked yet, and do not know if I will, that = the=20 Greek language and therefore mostly the ancient Greek where it = derives from,=20 is an axiomatic language, and has a similarity to logical = structuring or is=20 of stricly logical structuring?.
Which means what in the multi = faceted=20 world were everything is connected?
 
Math and Greek = are of=20 similar origin? of ancient greek origin? And if it is = ?
so?
What=20 do math really create with their sympolism?
Possible answers? =

      S: Certainty.  Not possible = in the=20 World, but possible in math and logic (if you keep it simple!).

So does have to do with Godel, = dynamics with=20 Godel?
math of Godel to math to dynamics to language to = Godel
We=20 forgot something Greece.
We add that up.
Greece to = ancient
And this=20 is dynamics?
 
"The pendulum of the mind oscillates = between sense=20 and nonsense, not between right and=20 wrong"
 
Jung
 
math of Godel to math to = dynamics=20 to language to Godel to Jung to math to dynamics
 
Sense = to=20 math?
math to sense?
 
we go again
 
math = of Godel=20 to math to dynamics to language to Godel to Jung to math to=20 dynamics
sense to math to Greece to ancient to math to sense to = Godel to=20 Jung?
 
ancient goes to?
yes history
history to = ancient to=20 math to history to ancient
 
math of Godel to math to = dynamics to=20 language to Godel to Jung to math to dynamics
sense to math to = Greece to=20 ancient to math to sense to Godel to Jung to history to ancient to = math to=20 history to ancient to Godel to dynamics to history to dynamics to = ancient=20 ....
 
Tired.
 
Does anyone want to continue = with=20 other interractions, what is the number called ? infinite, and=20 it comes from?
 
God it sounds all Greek to = me?.=20

     S: Have another hit.

STAN

 
 
 
 If=20 one does not understand a person, one tends to regard him as a = fool=20 as one said long ago.
But who cares about Jung, Jung = thoughts were=20 nonsense he says that the greatest and most important problems of = life are=20 all fundamentally insoluble. They can never be solved but only=20 outgrown. 
?
 
Wonder what growth could = be...
Should I=20 add a sense to growth to the calculation and calculation = to Godel=20 to fundamentally=20 insoluble?. 
 
 
Best,
Thanasis, = unemployed=20 physicist, guess some kind of a fool, whatever a fool is,( guess=20 my Greek is better than my = English)
 
Ps:Should I add=20 that up to the list? and that is which list?
and the purpose of = the list=20 to the ones subscribing to dynamics to me to the ones who created it = to=20 me to language to purpose to sense to Godel to logic to madness = to=20 sense to language? 

Sense is being...
wonder = who said=20 that?
what sense and what=20 being?
 
 
 
Welcome to=20 Gestalt
 

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